Orange County Shooters
News from the Orange County NY, NY State and the Nation of interest to
gun owners and sportsmen

NOVEMBER 2004 Newsletter
Master Class 22 Plate Match Report Master Class 22 Plate Match Report
Teenage re-enactor won't face gun charge Teenage re-enactor won't face gun charge


NY's Assault Weapons Ban impact after the end of the Clinton Federal AWB ended. NY's Assault Weapons Ban impact after the end of the Clinton Federal AWB ended.


Collision of cultures, Hmong and white hunters have had disputes in the woods. Collision of cultures, Hmong and white hunters have had disputes in the woods.
CBS news looking for people for an anti-BB gun CBS news looking for people for an anti-BB gun "The Early Show" segment.
Zogby Post-Election Poll ask 2nd Amendment Questions Zogby Post-Election Poll ask 2nd Amendment Questions
What is she talking about? Barbra Streisand speaks out. What is she talking about? Barbra Streisand speaks out.
Felons for Kerry, Rock the Vote & Vote or Die.
NRA has gun lawsuits in cross hairs, By Anne C. Mulkern, Denver Post Staff Writer, Washington - Emboldened by the results of the month's elections, the nation's largest gun lobby will push again for a federal law shielding gunmakers and sellers from lawsuits. ... the National Rifle Association says, it will have four more pro-gun senators.  

CoBIS or Gun "DNA" Watch

# OF CoBIS "Hits"
$15,000,000 +?


08 Nov, Mon, xx:xx:xx 20 Nov, Sat, 16:25:27
20 Nov, Sat, 16:29:15

Master Class 22 Plate Match Report Master Class 22 Plate Match Report

     Master Class had another fun 22 Caliber Pistol Plate Catch on Nov. 7th. Over 20 people shot for score in both Red Dot and Iron Sights Class. Three people shot clean with several more people almost making it. Using the "Lewis Scoring System," 9 people ended up "in the money" and as usual, more people than that left with an extra pound or two from all of the food. The next event is set for Nov. 28th and will be a Center Fire Steel Plate Match. I hope to see you there.


Teenage re-enactor won't face gun charge Teenage re-enactor won't face gun charge
by Christian M. Wade, Times Herald-Record

     Crawford - A misdemeanor weapons charge against a 17-year-old Pine Bush High School Student has been dropped.
     Crawford Town Justice Michael Heckman agreed to drop the charges against Joshua Phelps as long as he stays out of trouble for the next six months, his mother, Valerie Michaels, said last night.
     "We are very pleased with the court's decision," she said, after emerging from a closed-door court hearing in Crawford Town Court last night.
     Phelps was arrested Oct. 12 for bringing a replica of a Civil War-era musket to school and was charged with fourth-degree criminal possession of a firearm, a misdemeanor punishable by up to a year in jail.
     Because he is a juvenile facing a misdemeanor weapons charge, the decision by the Orange County district attorney's office to drop the charges was announced in the judge's chambers.
     Phelps was joined by several friends who came to support him. A middle-age man, who identified himself as a Revolutionary War re-enactor, showed up in a full militia uniform. He was not armed.
     "I'm just glad to be able get on with my life," Phelps said out-side the court last night. "This whole experience has taught me a lesson."
     Phelps was arrested three weeks ago after a high school security guard spotted a replica musket in Phelps' car in the school parking lot.
     The school district suspended him for five days, and then tacked on 16 more days a week later at a disciplinary hearing.
     Phelps was a member of the famed Orange Blossoms, a Montgomery-based Civil War re-enactment group whose members model themselves after the original regiment, which was mustered into action from Orange County in the summer of 1862. He joined the high school's Civil War Club two years ago, after seeing an ad for the school-sponsored group.
     After participating in a re-enactment of epic 1863 Battle of Chancellorsville, phelps said he put the musket, along with his blue Union soldier's uniform and equipment, in his car and forgot about them.
     Two days later, a security guard saw the musket and called police.
     Under the Pine Bush School District's policy, the B-average student could have been suspended for up to a year. The school district has refused to discuss the matter.
     Town of Crawford police and school officials said they were simply following state and federal protocol for incidents involving weapons found on public school grounds.     I still don't understand why the kid had the gun at school. It is my understanding that he was suppose to turn the gun in after the event and I can not see how he could have not known that he should not take the gun to school and it is just plain stupid that he did not have the gun covered up and/or in the trunk of his car! No one should ever leave any kind of gun in a car for days. The Pine Bush School has every right to punish someone with a "facsimile" gun because that is what the "Code of Conduct" allows. While Pine Bush has gotten a lot of hate mail, it does not appear that they have really done anything wrong, and if anything, have given the kid a break. I understand that the reenactors have changed their procedures and I can not understand why they did not call the mother and tell her to take possession of the Musket after they found out that the kid did not turn it in. The same is not true of the police.
      I still don't understand why court did not just drop the charges. NY state law does not make it a crime to bring a replica gun onto school grounds as far as I can tell. The police had no reason to arrest Phelps at the school. They should have taken Phelps and the gun back to the police station to find out more about the gun. I am sure that Phelps told the police that the gun was a replica and could not fire a real bullet.

NY LAW S 265.00 Definitions.

11. "Rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and
intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and
made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic
cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for
each single pull of the trigger.

S 265.01 Criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree.
A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth
degree when: ...
(3) He knowingly has in his possession a rifle, shotgun or firearm in
or upon a building or grounds, used for educational purposes, of any
school, college or university, ... without the written
authorization of such educational institution;


NY's Assault Weapons Ban impact after the end of the Clinton Federal AWB ended. NY's Assault Weapons Ban impact after the end of the Clinton Federal AWB ended.

     Because the Federal Assault Weapons Ban ended on 9/13/04, NY gun owners are going to have to be careful because several of the provisions of the NY State AWB relied on the Clinton AWB ban being in place. When it was passed the NY AWB was touted to not have an impact because it mirrored the Federal AWB. In truth, the NY AWB had some changes in the wording and did not include the sunset provision that was in the Federal AWB. Now that the Clinton AWB is no more, everyone in NY is going to have to make sure that they follow the law and when they buy a new magazine or gun, you are going to have to make sure that it complies with the NY AWB and if it does not, that it is "grand fathered" by being made before the 9/13/94 date.
     If you purchase a "used pre-ban" magazine you are going to have to make sure that it is really "pre-ban" and not one made after the end of the ban. Take Glock for instance, I talked to the Production Manager for Glock who said that when the Federal AWB went into place, they had to move the markings on the Magazines that gave the caliber up on the magazine body so that the other required wording, (For Police ...,) would fit. Now that they are making +10 magazines for the rest of the country, they dropped the extra wording and only have the Caliber of the magazine but they did not move where it was so now it still high on the magazine and so identifiable as a post federal ban mag. They have made some other minor changes but they would not be something that would be easily noticeable.
     For guns you will have to check when the gun was made and what configuration it was made in if you want to comply with the NY AWB. You might buy a gun that you are being told is a "Pre-Ban" gun but when you check the serial number with the maker you will find that it is a "Post-Ban" gun or that it was made during the ban as a legal gun but someone added features that make it an illegal firearm under the NY AWB.
     For a look at the NY AWB please look at's special report:

NY Bill S08234, NY's Assault Weapons Ban

NOTE: if a mag was repaired and the tube was replaced somewhere along the way,
the magazine might still be legal.


Note where the Caliber marking is and how it was moved up on the LEO and Post ban.


Another telling feature of new mags is the 'smooth' or 'beveled' sides as compared to the older design with the shoulder. LEO or 10 round 'Clinton' mags can be either way.


November 10, 2004 -- ALBANY — Gov. Pataki's top political adviser has trashed President Bush, attacked the "Christian right," and said Bush's re-election means Pataki can't become president in 2008.
     The shocking comments by Arthur Finkelstein appeared in the Israeli daily newspaper Maariv, which also quoted the nationally known GOP consultant as saying that in the presidential election, "the Republican Party became the Christian right, the most radical in modern history ever."
     Finkelstein, the one-time political guru to former U.S. Sen. Alfonse D'Amato, is also described by Maariv writer Boaz Gaon as "hating" Bush.
     In the story, which ran last Friday, Finkelstein accused Bush of trying to "dictate to America how to live and what to believe in."
     Finkelstein, who has helped run several Israeli elections, is also described as claiming Bush is more interested in banning abortion than he is in winning the war in Iraq.
     And Finkelstein, who told a Boston newspaper several years ago that he is homosexual, described Bush's campaign strategy as being more interested in banning gay marriages than in improving the American economy.
     Finkelstein, who is credited with orchestrating Pataki's stunning upset victory over then-Gov. Mario Cuomo in 1994, told the newspaper Bush's victory is bad news for Pataki, a social liberal who supports abortion and gay rights, because it means the "Christian right" is in charge of the GOP.
     Asked if Pataki could run for president in 2008, Finkelstein responded: "Bush's victory not only establishes the power of the American Christian right in this candidacy, but in fact established its power to elect the next Republican president."
     Finkelstein did not return calls seeking comment, and Pataki's camp did not return calls.
     A prominent Republican familiar with the interview called Finkelstein's comments "a big embarrassment for Pataki. "Arthur isn't comfortable being a Republican anymore when he's so unhappy with our success and that's why he's so flamboyantly bashing the president."

on Rainbow Lives
An Eclectic List of Over 3,500 Queer* Lives


Collision of cultures, Hmong and white hunters have had disputes in the woods. Collision of cultures, Hmong and white hunters have had disputes in the woods.
Pioneer Press, Posted on Mon, Nov. 22, 2004

     Hunting is a tradition many Hmong have continued to pursue since resettling here from Laos, though not always smoothly.
      Some Hmong hunters in the Twin Cities say they have been targets of harassment and intimidation. Some of their white counterparts complain that the former refugees, used to unregulated hunting in their homeland, sometimes fail to comply with modern hunting regulations and wildlife management practices.
     "A lot of these hunters are people who have a strong tradition in hunting," said Hmong activist Michael Yang of St. Paul, who joined friends looking for deer on his first hunting trip a few weeks ago. "That was one of the bases of survival back in the old days. You go out there in your farm fields and hunt what you need."
     Hunters of all kinds expressed shock Sunday at the arrest of Chai Vang of St. Paul in shootings that killed five people and injured three during a dispute over a deer stand in western Wisconsin. The natural resources departments in Minnesota and Wisconsin, home to more than 75,000 Hmong counted in the 2000 census, have both hired Hmong conservation officers to help bridge the gap between Hmong hunting traditions and today's regulations.
     Lee Pao Xiong, a Hmong activist from St. Paul, said he stopped hunting on public lands in Minnesota after an incident several years ago in which he and two friends were hunting for squirrels. Two carloads of white hunters suddenly pulled in to the spot where the three were camping and started making harassing comments. Several other Hmong hunters overheard the commotion, and the other hunters left when they realized they were outnumbered.
     Michael Yang said he hears Hmong hunters talking of discrimination and taunts from other hunters. Hmong hunters have even been forced to take off their clothes at gunpoint, he said.
     "Definitely, there's a lot of friction," Michael Yang said.
     Other hunters say they have had problems with Hmong hunters they have encountered.
     Maple Grove hunter Sandy Halvorson said some local hunters complain that Hmong hunters have come onto private property to hunt and don't understand property rights and bag limits.
     "There's a problem with our system," she said, adding there should perhaps be classes to teach hunting laws and traditions to immigrants trying to obtain a license.
     "There is a cultural difference between hunting in other countries and hunting in the United States," she said.
     Hunters are protective of their favorite spots, said Dusty Bosteder, a hunter from Birchwood, Wis., near Rice Lake.
     "I'm shocked," Bosteder said of the shootings. "Stuff like that doesn't happen in this area." Still, he said, "Around this country, it has always been territorial."

Five Killed In WI Shooting Involving Deer Hunters

      Two hunters were returning to their rural cabin on private land in Sawyer County when they saw the suspect in one of their tree stands before noon Sunday, County Chief Deputy Tim Zeigle said. A confrontation and shooting followed. It's not known who shot first, Zeigle said.
      Both men were wounded and one of them radioed to the cabin a quarter mile away. Two or three hunters responded and were killed, he said. About 20 shots were fired, but it's unclear who shot them, he said. There was only one gun among the hunters' group, Zeigle said.
      Zeigle said the suspect was "chasing after them and killing them," with a SKS 7.62 caliber semiautomatic, a common hunting weapon.
      The dead included four males, including a teenage boy, and a woman, Zeigle said. A father and son were among them, he said. Some of the victims were shot more than once.
      All five, from the Rice Lake area, were dead when officers arrived to the area near Town of Meteor in southwestern Sawyer County, he said.    ...

CBS news looking for people for an anti-BB gun CBS news looking for people for an anti-BB gun "The Early Show" segment.

UPDATE: I wonder who from CBS was looking at my web site and why they were looking. (See LOOK WHO'S BEEN TO OCSHOOTERS.COM above.)


I finally figured it out.
Common Sense about Kids and Guns is a front for its President, Victoria Reggie Kennedy. That's Kennedy as in wife of Senator Edward M. Kennedy,
From her bio on the web site at:

"Mrs. Kennedy is a member of the Board of Trustees of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, where she chairs the Board's Program and Strategic Planning Committee. She has served on the Board of Stop Handgun Violence in Boston, Massachusetts and has served as a member of the Advisory Committee for the Annual Day of National Concern about young People and Gun Violence."

     I keep a watch on a web site called Common Sense about Kids and Guns at I have been watching their Bulletin Board. A few days ago I found the following POST:

Re: Re: BB Guns
Posted by: Melinda Murphy
I am a correspondent on The Early Show, CBS' national morning program. I am working on a story about the latest report on BB guns and other nonpowder guns, and am hoping you can help us. We are looking to find a family with a personal story of the injury or death of a child who was playing with a BB gun. We want to put a face on the story to help other parents understand just how dangerous these weapons can be.

Please let me know if this is something you might be able to assist us with.
Thank you for your help,
Melinda Murphy

   I decided to look to see who was backing the group and found they stated: Our Endorsing Organizations include:

  • American Academy of Pediatrics
  • Child Welfare League of America
  • National Crime Prevention Council
  • National SAFE KIDS Campaign
  • National Shooting Sports Foundation
  • Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute, Inc.
  • Stop Handgun Violence
  • The U.S. Conference of Mayors

I know that most of the endorsing groups are totally anti-gun and could not understand why the National Shooting Sports Foundation, (NSSF,) and Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute, Inc. would endorse this group so I called the SAAMI & NSSF and found that they did not endorse the group and that they had told them to take their name off as endorsers. SAAMI & NSSF's legal department will be sending Common Sense about Kids and Guns another letter to have their name taken off the list. I also talked to the National Crime Prevention Council and they said that they do not endorse any product or organization and that they will be looking into this matter.

Zogby Post-Election Poll ask 2nd Amendment Questions Zogby Post-Election Poll ask 2nd Amendment Questions

     Zogby has a Post-Election survey asking about voting problems, motivations, and more. They also asked several 2nd Amendment questions.

  • Currently, residents of the District of Columbia are prohibited from owning a firearm. Should Congress pass a law to allow them to buy firearms?
  • Do you agree or disagree that American firearm manufacturers who sell a legal product that is not defective should be sued if a criminal uses their products in a crime?
  • Currently, 36 states have laws that allow residents to qualify for a permit to carry a firearm if they pass a background check, if they take a firearms safety-training course, and if they pay a fee to cover administrative costs. Do you support or oppose such laws?
  • Here are two statements about gun control. Please pick which statement comes closer to your point of view - A or B?
    Statement A: There needs to be new and tougher gun control laws to help in the fight against gun crime.
    Statement B: There are enough laws on the books, what is needed is better enforcement of current gun control laws.
  • Do you agree or disagree that Congress should pass a federal law that allows reciprocity between all states that allow concealed carry of a firearm so that the concealed carry permit in one state is automatically honored by another state that also allows concealed carry of a firearm?
  • John Kerry said he always has and always will fight to protect the legal right to keep and bear arms. Did Kerry's statement on guns make you more likely or less likely to vote for him or did it make no difference?
  • Did John Kerry's hunting trips, statements in support of the Second Amendment and campaign material in support of the Second Amendment convince you that Kerry has been a defender of guns and hunting in the Senate?
  • Do you or does anyone in your household keep a gun for personal protection or hunting at your home, place of business, or at a vacation home or club?
  • Here are the names of several groups. Please tell me if you listened for their messages before the election all of the time, some of the time, rarely, or never. The list of groups was: Democratic Party, Republican Party, Organized Labor, National Rifle Association, Christian Coalition, Business Organizations, Liberal Organizations, Hollywood celebrities like Michael Moore and Bruce Springsteen. You could Answer: All of the time, Some of the time, Rarely, Never, Not sure, Refused.
  • Do you agree or disagree that laws prohibiting convicted felons and non-US citizens from voting should be more vigorously enforced?
  • Some voters have homes in the north during the summer and homes in the south during the winter and are illegally registered to vote in more than one state. Do you agree or disagree that state governments should more vigorously prosecute those voters who violate federal law by registering to vote in different states?
  • Would you definitely support, probably support, probably oppose or definitely oppose changing the current electoral college system for electing a President so that the winner is the candidate who gets the most votes nationally?
  • The Supreme Court's ruling on the campaign finance law will prevent organized labor, National Abortion Rights Action League, Right-to-Life, and the National Rifle Association from having a voice within two months of a general election and one month of a primary election. Do you think that Congress should return the right to these organizations to advertise prior to a political campaign or should they restrict the rights of media organizations and corporations in order to level the playing field?
  • Congress' campaign finance reform law enabled so-called "527 groups" such as and Swift Boat Veterans for Truth to spend large sums of money to advocate for the election or defeat of presidential candidates. Thinking back on the recent presidential election, do you think Congress should have left the campaign laws as they were before the reform or do you think the campaign finance law reforms were helpful?
  • The U.S. Chamber of Commerce announced it would support Vietnam's entry into the World Trade Organization to open up that country's 80 million consumers to American products. Do you agree or disagree with this decision?
  • Do you think from what you hear that Vietnam offers religious freedom?
  • Which of the following statements comes closest to your own opinion - A or B?
    • Statement A: The country is deeply divided and the President and Republicans in Congress need to make some compromises with the Democrats in Congress to try to bring the country together?
    • Statement B: The President and Republicans in Congress won a mandate from the people and they should go ahead with their agenda regardless of what the Democrats think.
  • Should voters in Federal elections be asked to show a photo ID, such as a driver's license, passport, student ID, or military ID before voting?

     You can always Register to take the Line Poll at:

What is she talking about? Barbra Streisand speaks out. What is she talking about? Barbra Streisand speaks out.

     Barb put the following post on her web site:

We Must Have Patience
...Barbra Streisand
Posted on November 8, 2004

In response to the results of the Presidential election last week, I would like to share with you a quote from Thomas Jefferson. Although written in 1798, I feel his words speak perfectly to the strong sentiments of frustration and disappointment 48% of the country feel.

"A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people, recovering their true sight, restore their government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we are suffering deeply in spirit, and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public debt......If the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are at stake."

But what was going on in 1798? Does anyone remember the Alien and Sedition Acts? From Info Please

     Alien and Sedition Acts, 1798, four laws enacted by the Federalist-controlled U.S. Congress, allegedly in response to the hostile actions of the French Revolutionary government on the seas and in the councils of diplomacy (see XYZ Affair), but actually designed to destroy Thomas Jefferson's Republican party, which had openly expressed its sympathies for the French Revolutionaries. Depending on recent arrivals from Europe for much of their voting strength, the Republicans were adversely affected by the Naturalization Act, which postponed citizenship, and thus voting privileges, until the completion of 14 (rather than 5) years of residence, and by the Alien Act and the Alien Enemies Act, which gave the President the power to imprison or deport aliens suspected of activities posing a threat to the national government. President John Adams made no use of the alien acts. Most controversial, however, was the Sedition Act, devised to silence Republican criticism of the Federalists. Its broad proscription of spoken or written criticism of the government, the Congress, or the President virtually nullified the First Amendment freedoms of speech and the press. Prominent Jeffersonians, most of them journalists, such as John Daly Burk, James T. Callender, Thomas Cooper, William Duane (1760–1835), and Matthew Lyon were tried, and some were convicted, in sedition proceedings. The Alien and Sedition Acts provoked the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions and did much to unify the Republican party and to foster Republican victory in the election of 1800. The Republican-controlled Congress repealed the Naturalization Act in 1802; the others were allowed to expire (1800–1801).

     Barb, oh Barb, it turns out that the quote came from a letter Jefferson sent in 1798 after the passage of the Sedition Act. Barb, I think that the "reign of witches" passed over when Bush beat Gore. (Unless you are talking about us in NY having Sen. H******* R**** C******.) CLICK HERE TO READ THE WHOLE LETTER FROM JEFFERSON

Felons for Kerry, Rock the Vote & Vote or Die

     This article was researched because of a TV news story about how Paris Hilton, and 50 Cent were major names in the Rock the Vote and Vote or Die campaign but they were not even registered to vote. I decided to do some research on some of the people and this is what I found out. This is not a detailed research into the backgrounds. This is what you can find out by doing a GOOGLE search or going to THE SMOKING GUN.

From "VOTE OR DIE" aka Citizen Change web site: "has created an undeniable campaign by amassing its own “Coalition Of the Willing”." The following are some of the "luminaries" that are included along with some of the other people that are part of the project. Not all of the people who were part of the campaign are felons or have drug or alcohol problems.


Times Herald-Record
O C Shooters